Supermarket @ Larkfield Bus Depot
Just got sent the below message from a resident in Govanhill and thought you would all find it interesting.
[To see the display boards from the presentation the look to the bottom of this post. Thanks to Tom/ James who emailed us the photos.]
[To see the display boards from the presentation the look to the bottom of this post. Thanks to Tom/ James who emailed us the photos.]
"First Bus are going to be moving from their Larkield depot on Victoria Rd/Butterbiggins Rd and there's a proposal for the site to be developed into a supermarket. The plan includes "superstore, retail units, petrol station and car wash and related access, parking and servicing".
Under new Planning rules the local community must be consulted prior to a Planning Application of this nature being submitted. There's going to be a public exhibition of the plans in Daisy Street Neighbourhood Centre tomorrow (Tuesday 16th March) all day from 10am to 8pm. Comment forms will be available at the exhibition. I should also point out that any comments made on the proposals will be to allow the developers to adapt their plans before they submit the Planning Application. If anyone still wants to officially object to the Application they must do so once it is submitted to Glasgow City Council's Planning Department."
What do you all think about this proposal? The store shown in the proposals, is a biggy. Think more in terms of the super Tesco's or the nearby giant Asda's at Toryglen and Govan. At 100k sqft its the kind of store that could house a dry cleaners and an optitions etc and will likely stock everything from food, to clothes, DIY, stationary, beauty goods and household products.
Do you think its a good development?, will it really bring much needed jobs and consumer choice as the Developers claim or do you think its just another nail in the coffin of the independant shops on Victoria Road, Cathcart road and Kilmarnock Road. Do we need yet another retail park?
Do you think its a good development?, will it really bring much needed jobs and consumer choice as the Developers claim or do you think its just another nail in the coffin of the independant shops on Victoria Road, Cathcart road and Kilmarnock Road. Do we need yet another retail park?
Originally the proposal for the Larkfield site was for housing which seemed a good idea and would have helped smooth over the massive division that the M74 has been causing since it was first proposed back in the 60's. The problem with this section of the city is the lack of density. Its the reason the southside feels cut off, you have to pass through a barren land of industrial estates and waste ground. Is this new proposal the best way to reconnect the City in the wake of the new motorway?
What do you all think? Go along to the Daisy Street Neighbourood Centre Today 16 March between 10 and 8pm to see what the plans are and to have your initial say. You can also now see copies of the presentation below and can send your comments (for or against) to larkfield@muirsmithevens.co.uk.
(Please note that these comments won't be officially recorded and are not presented to the Planning Authority, they are merely to assist the developers in shaping their proposal. Once the Planning Application has actually been submitted, [probably in May], you then still have to go through the official feedback process at that point to have your opinion heard.)
(Please note that these comments won't be officially recorded and are not presented to the Planning Authority, they are merely to assist the developers in shaping their proposal. Once the Planning Application has actually been submitted, [probably in May], you then still have to go through the official feedback process at that point to have your opinion heard.)
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Labels: Architecture
42 Comments:
Some form of affordable housing or more social housing would be preferable to the community and would indeed bring some much needed vitality to that part of the city.
Conversely the retail development will introduce some much needed employment opportunity to the local areas which should in turn benefit the Victoria Road shopping area. There will inevitably be some casualties but was this perhaps going to happen regardless of the plans for the Larkfield depot area?
I think th eemployment issue is one that is always used to force arae's to accept these large Superstores - yes there would be some jobs created and in the current economy this is greatly needed. However in the larger context if the fruit and veg shop closes, and the butchers, and the hardware store, and the dry cleaners, and the chemist, then will teh offer shops and restaurants survive - how nice will it be to walk down Victoria Road, when every second shop is empty. What about these people or families who run these businesses. what about the knock on effect of these closing.
There was talk of the Hoey's site near queens park being taken over by Tesco's as well, how many supermarkets does the area need? I know as a local resident who does not drive, that Lidl does not have everything that you might need, but between Allison Street and Vicky Road most needs are covered.
I am not likely to make it to the Daisy Street Centre as I'm only just hearing about this now. Is there another way we can feed into this consultation? Any information appreciated. Thanks.
Hi Laura,
Currently this is a community consultation. For this scale of development it is mandatory that the applicant consultant the local community. Comment's left today are there to inform the design process of the proposal and objections can not be registered officially.
I am not sure if at this stage there is another way to feed into the consultation. I am planning on going along tonight so we will be able to give you more information tomorrow.
Once the company submits the application to the planning authorities there is then an opportunity to object to the development, if that is your view.
Went along this afternoon to have a look; there are five or six boards locating the site in the context of Glasgow (and other large supermarkets) and the neighbourhood.
Make no mistake, this would be a biggie. Although no supermarket company has yet been confirmed, I would imagine the developers are pitching it to Tesco, Sainsbury's, Asda etc. The Tesco Express that might have occupied the former Hoey building seems stymied; there were issues regarding the necessary relocation of the bus stop outside it so that the store could receive the necessary deliveries by articulated truck on the street (such miniature Tesco and Sainsbury's stores generally don't have loading bays, so have to have the same huge trucks parked on the pavement outside to supply them).
The exhibition was staffed by representatives of the developer and First. First Group want to sell the land and move to a new depot on the other side of the railway tracks and the M74. Funny how a bus company is pitching a supermarket with hundreds and hundreds of parking spaces! The point of the site nearest Victoria Road is suggested as a petrol station, with the supermarket at the eastern edge of the site, allowing for a loading bay and articulated truck turning circle between it and the street. An additional freestanding restaurant or retail unit is suggested for Butterbiggins Road.
The representatives of the development were keen to emphasise that Victoria Road has "suffered" from a lack of commercial investment, and that as a result of there not being a big supermarket local businesses have begun to fail. The developers would argue that a big new supermarket would bring people into the area, and that they would then shop at additional local stores.
This is, in my opinion, a humdinger of a falsehood. All the evidence I have seen (in my career as an architect) as that large supermarkets with ample free parking simply draw people in by car to shop. Those shoppers rarely then stay in the neighbourhood to shop at other businesses. In this instance, why would someone drive < 2 miles to a supermarket with a big free car park, do their one big shop, and then drive down Viccy Road trying to find another (paid) parking space to get anything else? It makes no sense.
A big plank of the developers argument is that Victoria Road is suffering, and that a big store would revitalise the community. They were keen to point out that there are c. 10,000 people without access to a car in Govanhill, and that they also need to be able to walk to a big supermarket. However, it's contradictory to then insist that it also needs a huge car park.
Remember, planning permission has already been approved for housing on this site, but that entire development has stalled because of the collapse of the housing market. First Group and the developer are now pitching a supermarket not because Govanhill needs a supermarket, but because it's their best hope of turning a profit on this land.
I popped along today to have a look. I'm in two minds over this. I certainly would find a supermarket so nearby convient, i currently drive out to silverburn to do my big shop. However i wonder if some alternative development would be a greater benifit to the area. I agree that the southside feels cut off from the city especially with the new m74, and wonder if something else would be of larger benifit than ANOTHER big supermarket.
The developers also said they'd be putting on a similar session later, perhas next month for those who couldnt make it down today.
Just been to the community consultation - the proposed store is roughly the same size as the Asda Store at Govan. These stores usually accommodate local amenities such as pharmacies, opticians, dry cleaners, cobblers, cafes etc. How are the local shops on Victoria Road going to compete with that.
We don't need a superstore in Govanhill - we do need some more shopping options but we certainly don't need Asda or Tesco's taking all the trade away from local shops. That is a huge supermarket how is the area going to cope with all the traffic, that this will create?
The footprint looks enormous. I live within 2 min walk of this proposed development and it will overshadow the enire are.
Although it would be nice to have more shopping option for atheists
I worked for a large commercial Architect's office for over ten years and sad to admit I've worked on numerous schemes like this. In all my experience with these kinds of project, there has never been a positive impact on the local areas. (Ask the developers for half a dozen examples of similar sized and located schemes which have had a definable, positive impact on their local areas over a five to ten year window. Bet they can't find any.)
The proposed scheme is massive. This will be a mega store, think super Tesco rather than local Somerfield.
The scheme at present doesn't address the urban planning problems that blight that part of the city, or actually deal with Glasgow's continuing dependance on car travel. When I chatted to the developers this afternoon, they gave conflicted arguements regarding car use. Playing up the benefits to "local" residents being able to walk to the store, while on the other hand advising that the real aimed catchment of the store was to try and compete with the two large Asda's at Toryglen and Govan.
I'm willing to be won over by a developed arguement and a well thought out scheme which has the community and its urban context at its heart but so far I'm afraid I'm just seeing the same old strategy being rolled out. (I should know I've been involved from the other side.)
The plan has been put together to maximise the revenue that can be generated from the site for the developer and then some window dressing catchphrases have been stuck on to woo us all into thinking they have our best interests at heart.
The current proposal from a vasic level doesn't even attempt to address the streets or the rest of the area.
I should maybe write up a list of the steps the developer will follow to see the plan through and the arguements they will use to try and force it through. Maybe will post on that tomorrow if anyone is interested. We can maybe make little bingo cards and tick off the half promises and over egged stats as the developers press department spews them out.
I need to make a point of reading this blog more often - missed the window of opportunity yesterday.
From the photo, it appears all entry/exit points will be on Butterbiggins Rd, which will then strain the traffic flow on either side - Victoria & Cathcart Rds. I'm no Daniel Burnham, but coupled with the M74, this does not bode well for the future traffic patterns in the area.
What is truly hard to fathom is how a giant box next to a rail line will somehow connect the South Side - there is still a long mile of urban blight to the north of this new behemoth, and once again, the M74 will ensure the blight nearby stays nearby.
I had been of the option that an additional supermarket in the area would be a good thing. That was until I saw the proposed development. It will completely change our area, both physically and through the demise of local businesses. Can you imagine the traffic? It is a mega store with a carpark with the capacity to hold hundreds of cars. This is not a development that will help Govanhill and surrounding area.
@Bill yeah we only found out about the display yesterday at the last minute.
As part of the process the developers will be holding another display in a few weeks, if we find out when it will be held we'll let you know.
The developers aim is to submit their planning application in May. It is then that the public can officially log their opinions for or against with the council. Lots of people in both camps it seems.
If you didn't make it to the presentation and would like to see the display boards then check out the below link. (Someone kindly emailed us photos of the boards last night)http://www.flickr.com/photos/7935774@N04/sets/72157623637441382/
Was interested in what the developers had to say yesterday. One guy told me their aim was to turn Victoria Road into Byres Road. Does Byres Road have a giant Tesco on it? I must have missed it last time I was there.
Very torn. The handiness of this giant superstore would save me getting the bus to do my shopping but apart from that I can't see anything but downsides.
Yes they said that to us as well. Interestingly enough we were in the westend a few weeks ago and were chatting to one of the independent shops on Byres Road and they were complaining about the impact that waitrose has had on their business and others.
Oh dear
When is the next meeting? I live round the corner and didn't know anything about this until reading it here today.
@ Ian S - Not sure when the next meeting is. If we do find out we'll post it on here so everyone gets a chance to know about it.
I take it from you "oh dear" that you are not a fan?
The only sensible thing the developers raised was the contorted traffic system currently in place. I think this area, as quite a lot of the Southside could do with a traffic rethink. At the moment, its not that easy to get around the southside. Its easier to go north and south, than to go east and west. Less de-end streets, less one way roads, more bus lanes, better public transport and get people travelling up and down victoria road again.
There would clearly need to be a massive traffic rethink in the area if this was to go ahead. Pollokshaws Road (East branch) is effectively dead for traffic due to the bus gates.
Like some others, I'm not completely against this development, if it were scaled down a bit. Surely the developers aren't trying to sell it on the back of the M74 - there won't be a junction near enough to make that viable. Come off at Polmadie and the Toryglen Asda will be closer.
As to which supermarket chain would want to take it up, I'd assume it would either be Tesco, Sainsbury's or Waitrose (though the site and location seem unsuitable for the latter).
WTF?!? Bad bad news. There is not a single redeeming feature of this proposal for our local community. Vicky Road is struggling as it is - the idea that a giant supermarket at one end will HELP those businesses and increase local employment is ludicrous. Only a local authority run by a coke-addled muppet in charge of a party funded by property developers would even consider this. Oh, hang on...
I think this proposal highlights many of modern societies issues.
Big business versus small, dependance on the car, urban density, globalisation, break up of community.
I think these are issues that we need to look at closely and then make a decision on how we really want to live and what is the future City we want to be building.
While the Victorians were very good at planning and building for the future, we on the other hand tend to have a very short term plan.It seems its more important to always be building something, rather than to take a moment and make sure we're building the right thing.
Problems with this scheme - traffic congestion, pollution, death of local businesses. I was happier with the proposal for the tesco metro at hoeys. Much more realistic scale for what should be a dense area.
Employment? How many of us will Tesco hire? Especially those who don't speak english as our first language? If all the shops on Victoria Road were full and hiring three or four people we'd have more employment than with a Tesco but they are not.
If we are being told that the jobs created are worth the sacrifice of having a massive superstore planted in and overshadowing our local community, then we should be asking for a breakdown of what these proposed 450 new jobs actually are?
Sounds slightly like politics speak to me. How many are part time, how many are minimum wage?
Also how about admitting how long discussions have been going with the Council and what are the opinions of the local councillors and the community councils.
The developers told me that they agreed that the Supermarket proposal was not the best choice for the area. They admitted that their first proposal for residential blocks would have been more of a benefit to the area and to the city but it just wouldn't make a profit for them just now.
If residential is best for area and would have made a profit a couple of years ago and if residential will again make a profit in a few years time, then why are they being allowed to just build something else which is not as good for the area just now because it will make them a profit?
Ps I don't live in the area just went along while visiting friends(thought I should declare my interests)
Best thing that could happen. The whole area is a dump anyway and about time the people in the area had jobs to go to.
This new store will bring in lots of people, who will then shop in the local shops. Only an idiot can't see that.
For me, it will be good as I'll be able to buy proper packaged food and not have to wander around the army of fruit shops on Allison Street.
I have to agree that it sounds like the developers know it's not the best development proposal but think they'll make money now rather than waiting a few years to sell to a housing developer.
It is a terrible proposal for the area. I've lived here for several years and have witnessed a decline in Victoria road due to the one way system - this scheme will be the final nail in it's coffin.
Another Glasgow plan with a massive car park and something plonked alongside.When the M74 was announced all the leading party politicians sang the same song and still are "this will take traffic away from surrounding streets".Anyone who attended the M74 promotion(consultation)would have heard the road lobbyist cheerleaders promise retail parks and supermarkets like this one along the route bringing empolyment to our communities.
Opening up the Calder Street baths would increase the footfall in this area.Bring down the rates and invite more specialised shops to the area would bring more diversity in choice.
Maybe Gordon Brown can imprint one of his eco towns in this space with a remit it has to be affordable and reflects the expertise of eco developments in Freilburg.
I wonder at the actions of First Bus why they see where they are moving to is an improvement on where they are,will look this up but does anyone know.
I am a councillor in this area and suggest any of you to question the other politicos do they still think the M74 will take away traffic from Cathcart Rd,Pollokshaws Rd,Aitkenhead Rd,Victoria Rd and the rest.
I know many fellow cyclists and walkers who take that route into town are psyching ourselves up for the noise and pollution that is ganging up on us.
It would be heartening for the many car users to speak out against these soulless developments and demand an infrastructure that does'nt make the car the easier option.
Breathe On
Are the electoral candidates going along tonight? I'd be interested to know where they stand on this.
As mentioned above I'd like to see a list of places where a proposal like this has had a real positive impact on the area.
I'd also like to know what the Council's planning policy is for this area. At the moment it seems to be to build as much crap as they can.
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See supermarkets are sprouting up all over the city. I think the planning policy must be to have a tesco store within a 5min radius of each other.
Here's a link to another one popping up in the West end. We'll have to change the Glasgow coat of Arms. "Every Little Helps"
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/editor-s-picks-ignore/tesco-trouble-1.1020062
Here is an example of one being rejected! http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/plans-for-milngavie-tesco-rejected-1.1020505
Only slightly related but very interesting article about how food sizes have reduced recently but the prices have remained the same. See if you can spot your favourites.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=2394297
It was interesting to see that Tescos are submiting a second scheme for planning in the westend.
A couple of thoughts
1. would Tesco look at developing two sites at once? Westend would be their priority so what would happen to the site in Govanhill - it could lie empty for years.
2. Look a the difference in quality between the two developments. Westend V Southside They have been forced in th enew proposal in the westend to look at an alternative design, landscaping and higher quality of materials.
There will be another public exhibition/consultation event at the Daisy St centre in Govanhill on Mon 26 Apr from 11am until 8pm
Here is a brief summary of the Q+A session on Monday Night. It was only a very short ten minute session and there were no real debates or discussions.
Many people showed interest in the scheme and their main concerns were to do with noise, traffic and the impact on Victoria Road. The developers said that they would hope the supermarket would be a positive affect on the area reducing crime and turning Victoria Road into a Byres Road (Though someone pointed out that since Tesco and Waitrose have opened on Byres Road many independant stores like Roots and Fruits have seen a 40% drop in takings.)
Developers introduced the presentation by advising that originally they had looked at a housing scheme but were now looking at a "commercial employment development" scheme aka a supermarket.
The developers discussed the number of jobs which this store will create though hightlighted that there maybe some impact on local business initially. (The actual number of jobs from a similar superstore and a breakdown of those hired from its local area would be interesting)
The developers confirmed that even if the supermarket scheme does not go ahead, the relocated bus station will and the associated jobs of this bus station will remain in the area albeit on the other side of a railway line.
The developers confirmed that while they own the site, First Bus also owns a percentage of it.
Members of the Community Council and the local Councillers would like to see further discussions take place. They would like alternative proposals to be looked at and would like to arrange a fuller debate style public meeting. If you would be interested in these then leave a comment below.
We seem to have very split views from readers - lots in favour of the speed and ease of the new store but lots of negative feelings too over its impact on the area, traffic and local businessess. What do you all think?
I'm the local SSP candidate and I am firmly opposed to the development of a hypermarket on the Larkfield site. The quality of life in the area is already going to be adversely affected by the monstrous M74 extension. A new Tesco with space for 1000 cars will make it even worse.
I'm the local SSP candidate and I am firmly opposed to the development of a hypermarket on the Larkfield site. The quality of life in the area is already going to be adversely affected by the monstrous M74 extension. A new Tesco with space for 1000 cars will make it even worse.
I seriously hope this never gets built.
There's already a petrol station and a supermarket right across the road anyway.
Go away please.
I'm possibly the only person who is in favour of this. If truth be told I'm actually a bit disappointed that the plans aren't for a larger retail park, with a supermarket and several other stores, like the one in Crow Road at Partick.
As someone who doesn't drive I think the area badly needs a bigger supermarket within walking distance and that it will bring a bit of life into what is a neglected and somewhat dodgy feeling part of the district.
I agree that the increase in traffic is a concern, but at the same time think that having more people around will make the area feel a bit safer, especially at night when most of the shops are closed. I'll admit that I don't like going to Victoria Road on my own, even in daytime, due to previous experience of some of the unsavoury characters who hang about.
I appreciate what people are saying about the impact on local shops, but seriously where are these wonderful independent shops in Victoria Road which everyone speaks of? I must have missed them. Most of it seems to be made up of charity shops, pubs, cafes and the odd high street chain store.
I'd imagine the majority of people don't buy their "big shop" from local stores anyway, they probably drive out of the area to bigger supermarkets.
Also are we forgetting that a lot of people in Govanhill are on low incomes, so don't have a lot of money to spend on overpriced goods from independent shops or farmers' markets? Supporting your local shops is all very well and noble if you have money to splash around, but in the real world if you have a tight budget then supermarkets are the only realistic option. It's a sad truth but one that seems to have been overlooked.
Thats the problem Bungogirl. All the issues are rolled up in to one. We've let Supermarkets get to big and powerful so they can bully local communities and planners into letting them build where and when they like.
Lots of people have come to shop in the faceless coroprations spending lots of money.
This money has given the Supermarkets a huge buying power, allowing them to force down suppliers prices and allow them to sell to us at low cost.
The smaller places, can't compete with the Supermarkets buying powers and get charged a higher purchase price from suppliers making them more expensive. The customers then move to the supermarkets.
Small businesses close, people end up working for the big companies and have less money. Money gets tighter and every penny counts so people shop in the supermarkets. Its a vicious circle.
There are also circles mixed in there connected to car useage and ownership v public transport annd also to do with high streets, local communities and giant blank facades and desert car parks of the supermarkets.
Do we keep going down the decreasing circles or do we say, you know what thats enough.
If the scheme is allowed to go ahead, then they should be made to provide money to local projects and it should only be progressed with a thorough review for what the community can get out of it.
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